Dissenting views

[Survivor]

Survivor here...
When I started this site, I thought it would be a way for myself and other to vent. And thankfully it has been just that. It has also been a place where we can see our common struggles caused by homeschooling.
Unfortunately unless you went through it and feel it, though, it is very hard to describe to others who didn't go through the torment. All that they see is the "polite" children, which we know are just scared. Or the "young kid who is awesome at playing some instrument" which we know is simply because they don't have anything else to do at home. Or the "kid is great with babies" where we know it's just because there are so many of them around the house, someone has to raise them.
I did finally come up with something, that makes people think, and so far have yet to have a person who approves of homeschooling come up with an answer to.

How are homeschooled kids going to learn how to deal with someone who disagrees with them? There is no outlet for that.
My children come home on a daily basis asking the "whys" of the world where they can't understand why other kids do and say things that we simply don't do at our home, whether for moral, ethical, or simply respectful reasons.
The fact is that homeschool families don't allow for these opinions in their home, because it is those kinds of independent thoughts that would cause chaos. As with typical cult-like groups, homeschooling requires a level of protection, and then propaganda to exist.
I will say that a child should not be left open to anyone's ideas, but things that they encounter in their schools from their neighborhood are what they are going to have to deal with later in life. These are probably going to be your co-workers someday. Knowing how to stand up for what you believe against those that don't is what will keep you from doing what they do, not hiding from it.
Read through this site, if you want to see the long list of us who got out into the real world and aren't proud of what we did because we didn't know how to say no.
So try that one the next time you run into an semi-intelligent person who thinks homeschooling is ok.

One day further from homeschool

Survivor

[Tally Marx]

If I may venture a reply to your objection?

"How are homeschool kids going to learn how to deal with someone who disagrees with them?"

This concern is valid if the homeschool child is unsocialized, meeting only their parents and siblings. Never having been faced with dissenting views, they do not know how to handle objections to their ideas. However--though that certainly may not have been your experience--many homeschool children are very well socialized. Not only are there homeschool support groups where they can interact with other homeschoolers, but the child can participate in 4-H, Key Club, Church functions, join the football/basketball/track team of the local public school, take dual enrollment courses at the local college, get a job, and a host of other activities. If they want to find dissenting views, it is as difficult as watching television and surfing the Internet. Despite your experience and the experiences of some of the other people on this interestingly unfrequented forum, many homeschooled children are socialized. Not all homeschooling parents are bad, evil, or deluded people who keep their kids in crates in an attempt to brainwash them and hide them from the "real world."

Respectfully,
-Tally Marx

[Survivor]

Please Tally at least be honest with yourself.
Even if you think it is a better scenario, which you may truly believe and I respect that,

WHAT YOU GET SOCIALLY IN A HOMESCHOOL EXPERIENCE IS NOT WHAT YOU WILL GET IN THE REAL WORLD WHEN YOU LEAVE HOME.

You are consistently exaggerating for the sake of emphasis, and I can deal with that, but if you are an intelligent person, and I believe you are, open your mind just a little, to see the other side.
Bad parents are in every social, economic, location in our society. There is way to high a percentage of people who homeschool their kids who have these tendancies that we are talking about on the board, for it to simply be the wacko.
People are not evil for homeschooling, but the vast vast vast majority of them are not capable of preparing their children for real life, and they either end up hiding because they know this, or turn it into some sort of religious defense, so they can justify what they know isn't the best for their children.
I don't question parents love for their children, but I do believe that many are putting their own issues, and guilt over the best for their children, or they just aren't smart enough to know the difference.
So stop the directed bashing of people on this site. That is not the purpose. That is what people do who don't know how to carry on a conversation.


Also please drop the respectfully from your ending, nothing you write is done in a respectful manner. Trying for cheap shots like talking about how many people come to this forum is just bush league. I don't care how many come here. I care that those who do come have a place to talk.
I am betting I am not the first person to tell you this. People who feel the need to justify themselves on sites they don't like, usually have alot of insecurity. If this helps you work through your issues, though, that is what we are here for keep posting.
You keep posting the same ideas over and over again.
If it is such an irrelevant site, just don't come

[Tally Marx]

"What you get socially in a homeschool experience is not what you get in the real world when you will leave home."

Honestly? Of course not. What child, public private or home school, has experiences the likes of which they will encounter when they grow up and leave home? The fact remains that homeschool children are not by necessity less socially skilled than their private and public school counterparts, and in that fact lies the answer to your question. Homeschool children are--again, your personal experience may be different, but this is mine--perfectly capable of handling dissenting views. If you ask a question, expect someone to answer it.

As for my comment on how often this forum is frequented; it was not a jab or meant to demean you and the others here. I said what I said because you seem to be under the impression that your experience is prevalent, because it is your experience and you have found others to agree with you. You can claim "vast majorities" but your experience does not validate said claim; and the experience of others, as well as several studies, contradicts it. I am glad that you have a forum to vent on. I have a blog for that, so I know how nice it is to have such a place. I do most certainly respect your experience and opinion. However, I agree with neither your citation of numbers, such as 99.9%, as valid statistics nor your insistence that homeschooling by necessity causes the problems of which you speak. If correcting a falsehood because one likes honesty and dislikes bias is insecure justification, then, yes, I suppose I am insecure and justifying. And if this site is not for bashing, then please stop bashing everyone who does not share your experience. Yes, telling 99.9% of homeschoolers that they are brainwashed and ignorant, and 99.9% of parents that they are selfish and unintelligent, is bashing. If you think your parents shouldn't have homeschooled, tell them that... Not mine, and not other parents who you do not know.

Sincerely,
-Tally Marx

[Survivor]

This site is absolutely for bashing homeschooling. I make no apologies for that, and I never said it wasn't.
Again, exaggeration for the sake of emphasis is a common tactic. No one in their right mind thinks that a study was done and I used the 99.9% statistic as an accurate measurement of my opinion. So get off that kick as if it is some sort of way to back up your legitimacy and my not. But if it is my opinion, than it is still my opinion, and I am always 100% percent right about what my opinion is.
For you to say you dislike bias is a joke.
I do not go to other sites, blogs, or people for that matter. This is a place to vent. I do not go to the myriad of pro-homeschool blogs and tell them they are wrong (ie you).
I will continue to point out the enormous flaws and lack of oversight in the homeschool system.
The lack of preparation that most receive to be a productive member of society, and clearly the pure lack of knowledge of most parents to be able to cover the subject I think are needed in a well rounded education.
But your points are taken, I hope you are successful in your future causes whatever they may be.

Survivor

[Laura]

Hi, I'm not a homeschooler or homeschooled. But I am considering it for my daughter, who is currently three years old. Ironically, one reason I might homeschool is related to your question. I am dissatisfied with the lack of critical thinking in public schools. I want my daughter to consider more perspectives, I want her to ask why, I want her to be exposed to more diverse ideas. I had an amazing education overseas in international schools, and I found American schools to be of poor quality, lacking in genuine diversity of belief, and lacking in rigor- especially in math and science. I think the quality of a homeschool depends on the parent's intent. For me homeschooling means exposing my daughter to more cultural experiences, encouraging her to think for herself, etc. It would allow me to travel with her, exposing her to the worlds' religions and cultures, etc. and, it would allow her to work at a pace more suitable to her potential. As for socialization... The key to socialization is making meaningful connections with others. It has nothing to do with prom or driving. We all need to celebrate, dance, and express joy, but there are many ways to this end. So... That would be my answer. I think there are many avenues to success and happiness. It's a shame more people aren't taught to have an elastic mind and approach to life, in public or home schools.

[Survivor]

Thanks for the post...
I don't have experience overseas, so I can't comment on that.
I also won't argue that many schools are of poor quality.
I will disagree that
"I think the quality of a homeschool depends on the parent's intent."
This is one of my main points. It has nothing to do with parents intent. Some parents simply aren't qualified to give their child a well-rounded education. Let's assume you are one of the >1%. Even then you can only teach your child what you know. Yes, you can take them places that have differing views, but then you are still going to put your spin on it. It is a totally different process to let them go and experience something on their own.
Please hear me that I don't think you are wrong in wanting to expose your child to ideas, but why do you need to isolate them from their peers to do that?
If you are going to expose your child to so much more than others get to, why not let your child be a light in their classroom to make others around them better?
The world has good and bad people in it, and we have to learn to live with and yes even love both.

Survivor

[1245012499124661245212523]

I have a problem with what you have stated in that reply.

I would like to address your claim about how the parents will put their own spin on what they teach. Why do people interpret things differently and make judgments as they do? This is simply a human characteristic, and teachers in a classroom are just as human as a parent. Teachers have opinions too, and honestly, if a child is going to be indoctrinated either way, I think the parents have more right to do it than a schoolteacher. It is grossly unrealistic to speak as though teachers will have no bias. In public school or at home, a child is not experiencing things on their own. They are doing so with the guidance of an adult, either a paid teacher or their own parent.

[Survivor]

Fair point, and maybe I didn't state what I wanted to clearly.
I understand that whatever anyone says is "putting their own spin on it." What I am trying to say is that I believe children shouldn't only hear your spin.
"Indoctrinated" is such a homeschool catch phrase but I will run with it...
You should be indoctrinated by your parents, that is their job. I believe I can do that at home, and then let them take those ideas and bounce them off of what they have to deal with at school. I want them to have the base beliefs that I do, but societies/generations change. what I had to deal with as a kid and in the workplace, is not what they will have to deal with when they get out. It's just unrealistic to believe that I can prepare them to deal with their generation using my norms, ideas, and presuppositions.
Sadly, teachers are MORE biased that many parents are. I wish more parents took the time to care about their kids. Teachers are required to open their mouths and give opinions.
I love it when my child comes home and says, "My teacher said this, and it doesn't sound right." What I have then is true learning. We talk about it, not me telling them how I am right and they are wrong, but a real conversation. I give my child a chance to also tell me what things are going on in school, that might have prompted this wrong, (or maybe partially wrong) idea. Or maybe I learn something too, and figure out I am wrong.
Homeschool families have a tendancy to be very rigid in all their beliefs, because they feel they are always being targeted. The problem is those walls stop the good as well as the bad things "out there."
Your point has been heard, and I hope I explained my point better.
Thanks for your comment.
If I may ask though, I would appreciate a name, even if it's fake, so I dont have to respond to
user # 1245012499124661245212523

Thanks

Survivor

[Alianne]

I realize that this post is almost a year old, but I just had to comment on: "There is way too high a percentage of people who homeschool their kids who have these tendancies that we are talking about on the board, for it to simply be the wacko. People are not evil for homeschooling, but the vast vast vast majority of them are not capable of preparing their children for real life, and they either end up hiding because they know this, or turn it into some sort of religious defense, so they can justify what they know isn't the best for their children."


THAT IS SO TRUE! I was homeschooled by my mother and father from 1st-12th grade. I'm in my early twenties now, and looking at how they both raised my brother and I, I have to admit that the above paragraph is really, really, accurate. I didn't realize it as a child, but now that I'm older, I'm able to admit to myself that my parents were both mentally ill. They both had severe anxiety disorders; my father's being severe social anxiety, and my mother's manifested as an eating disorder and OCD behaviour. I honestly believe that their anxiety and mental disorders were the reasons why they decided to homeschool my brother and I. Forcing us to stay at home, condeming socializing with other types of people, never taking responsibility for their actions etc. On the other hand, telling us we were better than public school kids, that we were more enlightened (although it never once occured to either of us that to just call the police or someone for help, and force our parents to put us in public school. Yes, "enlightened" about everything except for the fact that they were abusing us, and that our lifestyle was absolutely INSANE) it's all so obvious now.


Anyway, I think it relates to what Survivour said, because I've since read quite a few of the Homeschooling/Unschooling blogs on the internet, and I can see that almost all of them have the same patterns of behaviour that my parents did. They try to hide it really well, but once you read their blogs long enough, you realize that many of the things they say and do don't make sense at all, or they're just based in insane New Age ideas (my mother was like that as well). They try to justify what they do, by either saying their kids are extremely intelligent compared to all of the other children, or that they even feel sorry for public school kids. I know no one is going to like me posting this, but I want to in case other children come to the forum a long time from now, like how I did. The fact of the matter is, I can't speak for the other families, but MY mother and father, even more than their anxiety disorders, were both HUGE narcissists and had many control issues. I won't point out any specific blogs, but that's not just because I don't want to single anyone out; it's MAINLY because I haven't read a single Homeschool/Unschool blog where the parent wasn't a narcissist and extremely self centered. They'll do and say everyhting they can to deny it, but I lived with people like that for 18 years; it's extremely obvious to me. If parents REALLY wanted to help their children, they would try to help them deal with the REAL world, and all different kinds of people; not hide the children from it, or force them to adapt to just the parents worldview, and magically be superior to all of the other kids.


So, if any kids read this in the future and you're just as miserable as my brother and I were, all I'll say is Don't Wait! Threaten to call the police/CPS/ or to tell someone outside of your family if your parents aren't willing to put you in public school. I'm not saying you need to actually call them, or risk putting yourself in a foster home, I'm saying make it very clear to your family that you're willing to do that, and don't allow them to trap you anymore. Don't just sit there and suffer, and be terrified of the world and interacting with people like how my brother and I were.